I use an RSS reader somewhat obsessively, and it has significantly cut down on the time that I flounce around the internet, following link to link, surfing. I save that for lazy weekends or evenings instead of doing it during my workday, and it’s lovely. It means I keep up with my friends’ writings, with interesting blogs I might otherwise forget to check. I come across new ones and add them on a trial basis, I go through everything I’ve subscribed to about once a month and weed out those that are not so interesting.
One of my RSS feeds is the Women-seeking-women section on New York City’s Craigslist – but not just every post, I took the feed for posts containing the words both “femme” and “butch.” Because frankly, if you’re not a femme looking for a butch specifically, I don’t want to date you. There’s a lot of “NO BUTCHES/NO MEN/FEMMES ONLY” posts happening over there, and I usually just skip right by them.
Last night, a new post went up, and reads as follows:
lesbians does not = bois, studs,butch, soft butch. no confused females
Reply to: pers-603097450@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-03-11, 5:54PM EDTTo all you bois, studs, butches, soft butches or whatever you want to call yourself, this is not back in the old days in which you had to dress like a boy or man in order to go out late at night without getting raped and harassed so why is it that you still dress and look like a male? Why would I want an imitation of a man when I can get a real man if I was straight. It defeats the purpose of being with another woman if I’m with a “female” who looks, acts and wants to be a boy. It’s such a turn off.
Why do you all act like you’re all that when you’re not? I realize the ones who act the most cocky and over confident ones are usually the ugliest too- go figure. You make the rest of the population think we as lesbians are freaks when the majority of us are not. Be born to be who you are, if you are born a male be one, if you are born a female then be one, but if you’re unhappy with your gender then get a sex change but stop looking like a adolescent 15 yr boy girls. Girls actually go down on you?! gross!! makes me want to gag.
For those of you who are femme who like and date these male wannabes, you have no taste LOL, have low self esteem, don’t want anyone to be better looking than you, you want all the attn or not real lesbians. Why anyone would want an imitation male or female is beyond me. Take off your beer goggles LOL nasty! you are why the rest of the population shuns away from us and we don’t have the same rights as straight folks.
If your appearance looks like you are confused with your sex/gender how can you expect the straight world to take any of us seriously? I don’t even take you seriously and I’m gay. You look like a pathetic wannabe. We will never get equality because of you. Do the rest of us a favor and get a sex change and really become a male, and if you were born a male and want to be a female then do it, instead if going in drag, it’s so fake. The rest of us will respect you more for it. Don’t be a coward and go through with the sex change instead of pretending to be something you are not. Stop bringing the rest of us down. You are not a representation of the majority of us. We shouldn’t all pay for your identity issues. Stop trying to stick out like a sore ugly thumb.
I don’t even want to reproduce the whole thing here because, frankly, it’s offensive, personal, below-the-belt punches, and I would not want any of you potentially reading this to feel hurt about this. I want to protect you, see? I want to be the buffer against the big bad world of gender-phobia and only write cool, celebratory things, yay femmes!, yay butches!, yay to people who don’t claim a label but understand why we do! But that’s not what it is all the time, I guess.
And frankly, I’m hurt by this. Me, personally. My identity, my gender, my sense of self – hell, my very mission of activism and tolerance and acceptance.
Oh, don’t get me wrong. I’m fine, I’m not asking for your comfort or praise. I know I’m too damn sensitive. Generally, my butchness is pretty damn well accepted in my life – I’ve never had a single issue at my current job, I have fabulous friends who love me and celebrate my gender expression, I have community, I have this amazing space to write about things, I have lovers who appreciate my boyishness and have their own gender fetishes that compliment my own. I don’t feel ugly or like a “pathetic wannabe” or responsible for the inequality of homosexuals, for which that poster is blaming us butches. I know better than to believe that.
But it’s surprising. People really think this? Lesbians really think this? In New York City, in 2008? Really? Maybe I’m being naive here – but honestly the gender discrimination I’ve experienced in my life is usually about ignorance, not flat-out hatred.
I am tempted to pull the posting apart and write a response, but that idea just makes me exhausted. I’m too tired to defend my identity and sense of self and very essence and sexuality and sexual orientation toward femmes and gender and fetish to someone who has drawn angry, prejudiced conclusions about a group of people who she clearly does not understand. I’d like to write something; perhaps tomorrow I will feel more inspired and articulate. Today, I’m not even sure where to start.
This has created a little bit of lively discussion over on Craigslist; I’ve sorted through it and posted the responses after the jump. The original poster replied to a couple of the responses, most of which are people saying “you’re an idiot,” though one of which – the last one – was in support of the original post. Read them at your own risk, they’re hard to read, and may be offensive.
Date: 2008-03-11, 7:18PM EDT
That’s the same as saying: you’re a girl, you should only be attracted to men. You are such a hypocrite. As a lesbian, you should know that human beings don’t always fit so nicely into little square boxes. So stop stereotyping people and acting like you know everything.And this is not back in the old days where people (like you) are still prejudiced and ignorant. Get over yourself and stop hating.
Date: 2008-03-11, 7:42PM EDT
I’m not being a hypocrite and your analogy sucks. We were not born to necessarily just be attracted to men, nor are men born to just be attracted to women. What you are describing is attraction, emotion, pertaining to the mind and/or internal. What I was talking about is external and physical. If you are not happy physically then change it, but don’t call yourself a lesbian if you are wanting to look like a boy or man.Date: 2008-03-11, 9:01PM EDT
I am going to assume a stupid MAN wrote this, and leave it at that. It’s the dumbest thing I have read all day. Thanks for wasting my time. Your ridiculous, uneducated & nasty post-Date: 2008-03-11, 9:24PM EDT
and who’s (ex) girlfriend obviously dumped him for a butch/boi etc!!!Date: 2008-03-11, 11:19PM EDT
To the OP [original poster]: Yes, you are a hypocrite. You don’t want people to judge you because you’re gay, but you judge others because they’re not what you think they’re supposed to be? How is that not being a hypocrite? No one is telling you that you should be attracted to butch women. But here you are telling others who they should be attracted to and how they’re supposed to feel about themselves. People can figure that out on their own. So why don’t you just stop your ranting.Date: 2008-03-12, 1:09AM EDT
I’m not ugly, I’m just being brutally honest. The truth usually does hurts. You’re like the opposite of an anorexic, they see themselves as less attractive (fatter) than they truly are, but you see yourself more attractive than you truly are. I would read some of the postings on here where you would describe yourself as hot and/or beautiful, I click on the ad and you’re a chubby, short, short hair wannabe puerto rican looking shemale? but I’ve never seen a puerto rican boy who looks like you before, can you use the word hot and beautiful any more loosely? I think your parents inflated your heads up too much when you were younger. :-)I have turned down many of you, and as soon as I do, your true colors comes out. You only are nice when you want something or need something, once you don’t get it, all hell breaks loose. I’m just tired of the rest of us lesbians and my gay male friends who don’t have baggage and issues not being taken seriously b/c of you. Ask the rest of society what their perception of our community is, they will say that we look confused b/c they see boys who look like girls and girls who look like boys. They think us pretty lesbians have been hurt by men and we haven’t, we are just into women, plain and simply.
They are baffled, it baffles me. You are not a representation of all of us, but the rest of society only sees you and not the rest of us regular folks. We are paying for your identity issues. I wear jeans too and tshirts, polo shirts but I don’t look or act like a male. Gay men who talk/sound, walk and dress like women are fake too. You’re all trying to be something you’re not, so why fake it just be the real thing- get a sex change operation. My brother (born a female) did, everyone in my family, his coworkers and his friends respect him more for it, he’s much happier now then ever.
The comment that butches treat their women better is stupid, that has to do with the individual/person. Butches and bois cheat on their gfs just as much as femmes, if not more, you are just better at lying, I personally don’t though. My friends and I treat our gfs wonderfully, and vice versa. I’ve surprised my gf with first class tickets to Barbados for a week at a goregous beach resort, taken her to Hawaii first class and stayed at the Four Seasons Resort & Hotel in Oahu and Maui for 2 weeks. We’ve gone business class to Costa Rica and taken European vacations all over. We travel at least 2 times out of the country and also do road trips 5 others times each yr. I’m extremely romantic and never take her for granted, I’m not saying every femme are the same, it has to do with the person.
I’ve dated pretty women all my life. I’m not out to stick out like a sore thumb by being someone I’m not. We don’t get to choose what race/color we are, we don’t get to choose to be gay or straight, we dont get to choose to be short or tall, but YOU have chosen to look and act like something you are not.
I didn’t include tomboyish girls in this list, tomboyish girls are usually athletic, but they still look like girls, they’re fit, and don’t act or look like boys at all. Does this clarify things for ya? :)
Date: 2008-03-12, 2:04AM EDT
i agree with the original posting. hey if all lesbians looked as hot and normal as angelina jolie, portia de rossi and jodie foster and they dated other hot normal looking women then the rest of the society wouldn’t be so confused about us and they would understand. Straight men wouldnt ever say or think that they can change us. If you are a femme and date a butch/bois, of course a guy will think you actually want a guy, why wouldn’t he when you’re with a “girl” who acts and looks like a guy. These guys think they have a chance with you, and that you don’t really know what you want or haven’t found it yet. however if you’re a good looking girl with another good looking girl they would NEVER think you’re confused, they would only wish and beg if they could join in. the truth is the truth, it’s not sensely rambling. i have a valid point and so does the woman in the original posting. the other postings who disagree with us have no valid points, if we were in court the jury would award us the win. go ahead ignore us, b/c you know it’s true and you can win this argument.Who actually gets turned on by watching butches/bois kissing anyone? have you ever been turned on by that or do you look away? it’s not sexy. Can you honestly get turned on by that? come on now, get real. no one would pay to see that! be honest, you know it’s true. even if you’re a butch you wouldn’t even want to watch that unless you’re watching yourself, get real.
thanks for posting, i have always felt the same way.
OMG that offends me immensely- and I'm not the one being attacked.
I just don't understand how people can be so close minded! I literally can't comprehend it.
It just makes me so mad- why can't people just let other people express themselves the way they want to? Why is that considered so wrong?
[Thanks Avah … I don't get it either. – ss]
I can't be bothered giving any of my time to close-minded people like that (thanks for giving us the option not to read). The bitterness and unhappiness that she feels will catch up to her in the long run and do more harm than our words ever could. I don't believe in defending, not to people like that. She needs you to react, that's what she wants. It's so pathetic, that it's laughable to me. Sad, sad bitch.
[ Yeah, you're right about that. It's probably wasted effort to attempt to dialogue … and it is pathetic, and sad. I wish I felt like there was something I could do that would be productive, and successful. – ss]
That woman is a close minded idiot. I'm too incoherent with rage to come up with an intelligent response other than that I, personally, have always found that some of the sexiest people (both men and women) I know are people who transgress against traditional gender roles. There's something extremely impressive to me about people actively choosing the way in which they live their lives rather than simply bowing to societal expectation.
[Well said – transgressing societally dictated, limiting roles is not just liberatory, but also fucken sexy :) Just makes me so sad about this kind of closed-mindedness. – ss]
Wow. That is just amazing. It really boggles the mind to know that such hate and ignorance can be spewed by someone that most definitely has been discriminated against at one time or another…and to their own community, nonetheless…DAMN.
I really can't get over how some members of this very small community can be so hateful towards each other. I've experienced the coldness first hand…I have gone out to the gay/lesbian bars in D.C., and been told to my face "what are you doing here", "get out" because of my kin to wearing heels and my straight appearance. I mean the last time I went, this girl physically pushed me out of the way at the bar and told me to go to a straight bar. I had no words.
We need to be accepting of all shades, sizes, and forms of gay. Christ! It's 2008 people….come on now.
Oh, and that girl needs an education above 6th grade and a boot up her ass.
[Ah man, I hate those stories about lesbian bars like that. It reminds me of a poem by a friend of mine: "I mean how much pussy do I have to eat before they let me in the club?!" Regardless, thanks for having my back :) I've got yours. – ss]
I just have to reply to Samantha: Something similar happened to me too, but thankfully not as harsh. I went up to the bar to order a drink and these two chicks next to me were staring at me and said, "can we help you?" They were so nasty to me that I answered "I am ordering a drink, is that a problem for either of you?" I already had a drink in me and I don't like being messed with, but luckily they said no (they could have kicked my skinny ass) and then they went about their business but wow I got the picture right away. I really don't love going to gay bars.
[I really hate that shit. I feel really blessed & lucky to have come out in a very butch/femme environment, with butch/femme & trans mentors, so very little of that has happened to me – but it still shocks me when I come into contact with it. So frustrating. – ss]
wow, I had to stop reading after a few replies. thanks for sharing this, Sinclair. it’s easy to get all cozy and warm and complacent in the little bubble of enlightened community we surround ourselves with, so it’s good (or, necessary) to pop it every once in awhile.
it hurts, but it keeps us moving forward, striving for understanding. it reinforces why we need places like this. places that encourage thoughtful discourse and inspired introspection and challenging analysis.
this stuff kind of makes me want to cry, it’s just so hateful and unnecessary and sad. but I take solace in the progress we’ve all made, that I’ve made, in no small part because of your efforts here. i <3 sugarbutch!
[You’re the best, muse – thank you. I also want to mention what you said on the phone earlier about this girl being a solid example of real “femme privilege” – not the queer femmes who date butches, who date trans guys, who understand gender and queerness and activism and community. xo, love ya. – ss]
That is the first time, in a very long time, I've been accused of having low self-esteem.
I'm always amused by people who think that our minds are going to be changed by a random post on craigslist. Oh, you've shown me the light while showing me absolutely no respect!
I think that post comes from a place of not wanting to be read as queer to the outside world or "letting" others be read as queer.
[Good point about being read as queer – that's still so threatening, I forget that. And what a coward, right, to be posting something so full of hate-speech *anonymously.* It's bullshit. – ss]
my first reaction is hurt – to be offended for you, for so many people i know, for myself.
…but i have a lot of trouble taking someone who writes, “gross!! makes me want to gag.” and “LOL nasty!” seriously enough to be too offended.
that said, i also want to take it apart and respond to the argument, but it’s rather overwhelming. i’ll stick with two points: if they turn you off, don’t date ’em – it’s as simple as that, and i think a good rule to keep in mind in general; this is back to people being obsessed with binaries, “be a girl-girl or a boy-boy because i can’t handle ambiguity.”
oh, wait, a third point: yes, there are girls who actually go down on butches. and like it. ;)
[Lady B – you rock. – ss]
such baggage! i really can't take anyone who uses largely text message language in their mindless, inarticulate rant. it's amazing how much some people internalise heterosexism and swallow all that binary gender shite.
wow, s!
i get it, i get it. wow. even though i knew you were protecting us by putting the offensive stuff after the jump, i couldn’t resist and read on anyway. ouch! man oh man. part of me laughs and thinks, some folks just don’t get the wonder of gender fuck, the beauty of queerness, the luster of dissonance. but another part of me is like, “whoa, maybe i AM ugly!”
isn’t it just crazy how deep some feelings go? how we work and fight and think and try to learn how to embrace ourselves and know our own power, and then some random stranger gets to cut it down?
i’m with you, s. but here’s the plan:
i’m gonna have to show this one to my partner and then ask her to go down on me. you know, to refute the point. and, i’m sure you have a line of folks out your door who would be willing to do the same for you.
godspeed.
[Ouch is right – I had the same kind of responses. Those feelings of inadequacy and abnormality sure go deep. But oh man, I love your plan! Note to self, make that plan happen for myself so I can prove her points wrong ;) – ss]
Oh no that bitch didn’t.
I’m headin’ over there right now.
I found that offensive and Im a straight guy. Iv met the type before tho, arrogant, self righteous jerkwads. Its the tone of voice i usually recognize as relideous zeal.
Not much I can say that has not already been said….but I will say that I would love to read the rest of this poem
"I mean how much pussy do I have to eat before they let me in the club?!”
j.
Lesbians can make some of the ugliest homophobes of all — self loathing runs deep in one woman in New York on Craig's List.
janet
it’s amazing how much some people internalise heterosexism and swallow all that binary gender shite.
—————
just to be contrarian, perhaps cragislist girl simply doesn't have the unique frame of reference that genderqueer people might have. perhaps craigslist girl is hardwired in a way that she cannot comprehend anything outside of the binary gender model, and this limitation causes her brain to short circuit whenever something comes along and doesn't fit with that model. i think as lesbians we assume that all lesbians can comprehend all non-normative identities and expressions, and we get disappointed when they don't. sexual orientation is different from gender expression, after all, and one can be perfectly comfortable being a lesbian but be confounded by people who don't exist within the traditional gender binary.
what i see in the craigslist girl's post is frustration and an inability to understand. fine. some people just can't wrap their heads around certain things.
however, i take issue with her approach. i think her approach was immature and hateful, and she needs to grow up.
this offends me. I am a gender queer loving dyke. my wife ,is a fab soft stud, and nothing is sexier than that.
Most of this is so worthless and hateful that it's not worth, much response, but one thing that flabbergasts me as totally unacceptable is excusing someone else's bias. Her whole "you are the reasons we gays won't be accepted" is BS….homophobia is inherent to the bearer of it, not because some of like to play with gender.
This reminds me of a time in high school hearing a black friend correcting another black student's grammar, saying "you shouldn't say X because then they will think that we're all dumb". It was sad. We can't structure our lives around what prejudiced people will think.
Her whole “you are the reasons we gays won’t be accepted” is BS….homophobia is inherent to the bearer of it, not because some of like to play with gender.
—-
yep. it doesn't matter if all lesbians look like portia de rossi or if all gay men look and act as scrubby-clean as will in "will and grace." homophobes may not be able to identify us in the street, but they'll still vote against our rights.
“who actually gets turned on by watching butches kiss anyone?”…. uh, me! And I’m guessing, a lot of other lesbians…
homophobes may not be able to identify us in the street, but they’ll still vote against our rights.
How true is that!!
Really?
I mean, really?
The original post made me laugh.
The smirking, you-just-flagrantly-displayed-your-incompetence-to -the-everse, kind of laughing.
I tried to rummage up some sort of fiery feeling.. . offense, rage, bitterness.
Nothing.
It apparently wasn't worth all that.
I'm a femme.
A lingerie, skirts, stockings and garter belts with heels, lipstick wearing, eyelash curling femme.
I'm a femme, and I like my bois.
White tee, dark jeans, hair cut, leather belt, black boots, with lots of ink.
My preferred brand of butch.
And personally, I get all kinds of hot n bothered watching bois kiss bois.
*le shrug*
the math nerd would just like to add that "does not equal" is not the same as "does not include." her title is perfectly true, but the rest of her post does not follow.
Samantha, props to "that girl needs an education above 6th grade and a boot up her ass." that is totally my new favorite aspersion!
That one almost made me cry, and I'm not even outwardly genderqueer. I don't see how a dyke in this day and age could be so ignorant about gender fluidity.
But then again, craigslist, which I do use, is filled with ignorant idiots on all sorts of sexual topics. If you don't fit someone's 'norm' or what they desire, they often feel the need to attack what they don't like in a post.
On the men looking for women section last week, I found a post railing against 'fatties' and how anyone overweight is gross, lazy, unattractive, no one will ever love us, blah blah blah. (If thats true, then how am I still getting laid, by really really hot guys, and going to orgies and you're sitting on craigslist ranting? Think of it that way. All the awesome butches and femmes are probably out having a lot more fun that that cow.)
I don’t see how a dyke in this day and age could be so ignorant about gender fluidity.
———
see my previous comment (comment#18). i've learned that some people are just incapable of understanding certain concepts. i will also admit that there are certain concepts (that have nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity or expression) that i don't comprehend and can never hope to comprehend.
i think the way to deal with these people is simply to teach them to agree to disagree. instead of trying to explain what gender fluidity is, tell them that, although it's something that they find perplexing and perhaps even shocking, it's really not constructive to write hurtful and uncivilized things on the internet. the angry craigslist chick seems too set in her ways to change – her reaction to genderqueer people is so ingrained that it produces a knee-jerk response. she just needs to learn not to engage in hurtful keyboard thuggery and to mind her own business.
i think tolerance (rather that understanding and acceptance) is as much as we can hope for from certain people (at least at this point in time). and even that might be a stretch, unfortunately.
(p.s. and looking at the thread over at craigslist, it looks like angry craigslist chick seems to be getting off on all this attention. i'm afraid that any further response to this woman will only embolden her. man, i hate internet trolls…)
Wow I can't believe that biatch! What a ignorant hypocrite!
this is all too common. we had a similar posting go down on the mpls CL w4w board a few weeks ago in which some poster was talking about how sick and tired she was of "lesbians who hate their bodies" and questioned the sanity of "genderqueers – wtf ever!" needless to say, it caused quite a rage in this femme (i'm from jersey and i will *cut you* if you mess with my butches and my bois) and i responded in kind.
my posting was flagged down twice, but i posted it back up a few times too. in the midst of it all, i received 6 emails telling me that femmes aren't really queer, 5 or so claiming w4w/lesbian community/queer community should be "women-identified" space only, and about 7 or so applauding me for my righteously rad gender politics.
we have a long way to go on all of this. i was hoping it was just narrow-minded midwesterners, but i guess not. sigh.
on the upside though, one of the 7 who complimented my defense skills, struck up a correspondence of sorts, and we went out on a date last night that was more than fairly successful. i guess that's a plus ;)
I was bemused when I read all of the above (post and comments).
In a town where there's only one lesbian bar and you're either girly or boyish (mostly boyish although this seems to be changing slowly) this is a discussion that simply wouldn't even take place. You steer clear from the scary dykes, who stand at the bar, with their elbows wide, so you can't order a drink. You watch bemused as groups of dykes or femmes cluster on either side of the dance floor. And you remember those days when not a single dyke in the room would touch you with a loooooong stick. This 'discrimination' has been around for as long as I can remember. And we certainly are unaware of all the wonderful labels that the US LGBT community has devised to define everything and anything.
Maybe things have changed, but I'm not the best judge as I've been out of the scene for too long and prefer mixed company (i.e., straight and gay friends) when entertaining or going out (and so our friends).
That said, this afternoon, my SO and I were entertaining our munchkin in the park and half of the sandbox wall was occupied by a group of 8 butchy-looking women who had joined a straight couple with kids. There is no secret handshake for lesbians of either denomination. They stuck to their side and we to ours.
Should we have made the cross-over, waving the white flag, given that one of them was the ex of the ex of my ex (entourage!)? Should they have taken the first step across the sand divide?
Who knows? I certainly don't.
This post made me feel like I'd been slapped in the face. I moved to the city a number of years ago from Birmingham, Alabama, and I'm still hurt sometimes when I'm reminded that I haven't completely escaped from the non-acceptance I experienced growing up.
It's usually on a smaller, more low-grade scale- at my job, I work with a bunch of dudes. I'm about as femme as they come, on the dyke scale, but all the men at work ask me these dumbass questions like, "why do you act like a guy", or "so, do you feel that you are like a guy basically?" At the same time, when I venture out to lesbian clubs, shows, or parties, people stoically refuse to believe that I'm a queer. Plenty of times folks are only friendly to me once they see me with my butch partner. I've been told flat-out that I'm too tall and thin to look like a lesbian (!), too inexplicably feminine, too somehow-just-straight-looking. It pisses me off mightily.
I'm curious about the craigslist poster. As a teen growing up in a small southern shithole town, I found myself in relationships with other women who could mostly pass as straight. Let me tell you something about the straight world and acceptance: I've been jumped by strange men, shoved and hit in bars, spit on, and attacked in various other creative ways by straight men angry at seeing two hot girls on a date together. Not to mention the barf-inducing propositions of "joining in" or "watching the action" which turn inevitably to anger. This woman's idea that there's some normal dyke persona that can get the straights to all accept you, is the worst kind of bullshit. My experience has been that you are whoever you are, and assholes are going to find a way to get angry about it. That's when you learn to fight.
“who actually gets turned on by watching butches kiss anyone?”….
i do. the feathered sideburns, the tight body moving over the feminine partner, the jaw muscles, the feminine glint of her eyes on a masculine expression, the slight tilt of her head forward as she rocks… oh wait.